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 My son is asking about my military time (currently 1 views) |
| Frenchie |
| Posted on: December 10th, 2013, 5:43am |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Better late than never(?)...my son is 36yrs young (cant believe he is that OLD) and i noticed in the last few months he has been inquiring about my army time....the topic rarely came up and i tried hard (not always successful) not to bring it up in the past because he never showed ANY interest.
Basically i talk about my time in the field, daily activities..a few firefight we had and he seems to be seriously listening...i like it....i can tell he is interested because he will ask me questions.
In the past he could have cared less ...
Anyone else have the same experience? |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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| Jim Gray |
| Posted on: December 11th, 2013, 9:56am |
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Big Member Sept 67-Sept 68 D 3/21 and HHC
Posts: 87
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Frenchie. I have 2 sons 39 and 41. I have a grandson 13 who is gung ho Army. He is the one asking questions.
A few years ago i bought the book Through the Valley. It was about my ground pounder unit D 3/21 during my time in Nam. I was only in the field until about Dec 28 1967. I let him read the book and it really opened his eyes. I will answer his questions but i do not really discuss the encounters we had.
My sons and i have discussed some things in the past. I try to stay on the "good" stuff. Telling them about some of the better times we had.
The real problem is we are getting older and more forgetful. Ha Ha |
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Reply: 1 - 46 |
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| Gregory B Peters |
| Posted on: December 14th, 2013, 4:31pm |
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Maximum Member2 B company, 3/21/196th, incountry 07/1966-07/1967
Posts: 173
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| Frenchie, my Kids are closer to 50, so from the end of Vietnam to the beginning of Desert Storm there wasn't the media blitz that we see now. I don't ever remember them asking about my time. They were aware of my service and went with me to the Legion Club and VFWs ceremonies, not to mention Military funerals. Their closest uncles also served, but no discussion with them either. Nor did we brothers discuss it amongst ourselves. But I don't remember any flat out questions or discussions from them, then or now. Some of it is my fault, When I got out of the service I walked away from it all. No wearing army jackets or boonie hats, nothing on my walls. It just wasn't a good time to be a Vet. Grandkids are different, a little, age 16-26. The three old enough to join the military have had no inclination to do so. While my Nephew at least joined the reserves to get the free education. He is now full time reserves. But he was raised in the military since his dad was a lifer. While they have dragged me to every "bring an old fat deaf veteran to school day" there are no other discussion even during popular war movies of the last 10 years. At the school events I would talk more about my time in the states, not overseas. |
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Reply: 2 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: December 14th, 2013, 5:10pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Greg, apparently there must be a lot, of you describe, going on...i cant help but wonder why they didnt ask...maybe to protect you? i kinda am befuddled by the whole thing....mom and dad had a big BBQ when i got back and maybe one or two asked questions of me.
. I accepted it and moved on......this was before we knew of flashbacks etc...
I too didnt talk about it much for a few years then IF someone asked me about it, it came out of me and I would not stop talking....i guess i needed to talk of my experiences as a release....it didnt happen on a daily basis, it happened rarely when someone would inquire.
Hopefully im making some kind of sense here.
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Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 3 - 46 |
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| Gregory B Peters |
| Posted on: December 15th, 2013, 6:11pm |
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Maximum Member2 B company, 3/21/196th, incountry 07/1966-07/1967
Posts: 173
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| Frenchie, you're making perfect sense :-) We all had to learn how to deal with it ourselves. Besides, unless they were there who the hell would believe us? there was no way they could relate, We would either scare the shit out of them or they would walk away thinking we were full of bull shit. After all we killed babies, massacred civilians, were all drug addicts, and lost the war because of it. One of the first exploitation movies to come out was the Billy Jack series starting with Born Loser in 67. By 68 I was back in college out in the midwest and there just wasn't a lot of Vietnam Veterans. This was WWII country :-) |
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Reply: 4 - 46 |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: January 5th, 2014, 8:55pm |
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Funny.. "bring an old fat deaf vet to school day" That cracks me up. Yeah, the twisted mind is still working after a fashion.
My kids have never specifically asked. I haven't exactly been forthcoming about any of it either. Pretty much a mine field between us on that subject in the past, mostly on my part. They just knew not to step there.
My daughter only knew me as that picture over there on the end table when I got back..... One day recently, she was tagging along on a walk with the wife and I and her boyfriend was relating some of his father's experience in VN. Apparently he was armor down south. Anyway, he wasn't quite getting the gist of what my job was in the infantry. Not sure he is very close with his pop. She finally got a little cranky and said "Dad's job was shooting people". I guess he watched enough of the latest wars coverage where the newsies are mostly with vehicle infantry and didn't realize that we were on foot just about all the time. Apparently, she absorbed some of what I was doing. Surprising because I mostly talk about the relatively good jobs I had there and don't relate the horror stories.
I can hardly wait until I get really old and my exploits become truly heroic and ever changing. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 5 - 46 |
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| Bob Kotch |
| Posted on: January 6th, 2014, 5:46pm |
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| Fletch, great to hear from you again. I don't have any kids, but I worked with some people for over 25 years who never knew that I was in the military, yet alone a VN Vet. It was never discussed. We had very few vets where I worked and we knew who we were, and, even we rarely talked about our time in Nam. It took over 30 years before I began to open up and that was and still is mostly with other vets. People who weren't there can't relate and probably don't care. Their perception of the VN Vet probably hasn't changed any, either. I still believe we do not receive the same level of respect that the vets of wars before us and the campaigns after us do. And, they deserve it, but so do we. |
HHC, MP Plt. 9-67 through 9-68 |
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Reply: 6 - 46 |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: January 6th, 2014, 7:25pm |
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Posts: 175
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I have been able to start talking about the camping trip the last couple of years to people who are genuinely interested.
However, part of the reluctance I had was due to my own ignorance of the history surrounding the war. Opinions being like assholes and we have one of one and many others to spare... I have done a lot of reading and buying books that deal with history of VN, history of the war and recently a late sixties book that really dug into the post WW2 intel in VN. It was heavily documented and completely ignored at the time. It helped with a lot of the questions of our involvement and who the factions were in the war as it developed before we got more directly involved. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 7 - 46 |
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| Bob Kotch |
| Posted on: January 7th, 2014, 6:47pm |
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Posts: 187
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| You are right about opinions and about the history of VN and the war, both with the French and then us. It was all ignored by the media back then and we knew nothing about it. I sure didn't know any thing about it. Those people were at war for more than 20 continuous years with France and us. In VN today, the war with us is called the American war. I've read a few books over the last 6 or 7 years about the history of VN and the war. What's the name of the book you refer to? I would like to see if I can find it. |
HHC, MP Plt. 9-67 through 9-68 |
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Reply: 8 - 46 |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: January 7th, 2014, 11:06pm |
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The United States In Vietnam. An analysis in depth of the history of America's involvement in Vietnam. By George McTurnan Kahin & John W. Lewis. Copyright 1967. 66-21593
It has some very interesting info regarding the fustercluck that described the political situation there. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 9 - 46 |
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| Bob Kotch |
| Posted on: January 9th, 2014, 5:48pm |
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Posts: 187
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| Thanks Fletch. Knowing the history of our early involvement and the political situation over there before we were boots on the ground should put things in better perspective. Thanks again for the info. |
HHC, MP Plt. 9-67 through 9-68 |
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Reply: 10 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: January 9th, 2014, 6:02pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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A movie very much ignored but entertaining as well as informative is a Burt Lancaster movie called GO THELL THE SPARTANS
i am aware its just a movie but it will give you an idea how it snowballed into the mess we were in. |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 11 - 46 |
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| Gregory B Peters |
| Posted on: January 10th, 2014, 6:23pm |
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Maximum Member2 B company, 3/21/196th, incountry 07/1966-07/1967
Posts: 173
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shoot! history repeats itself, especially our involvement in any war. You don't need to rehash the start of VN, the same circumstances occured with the Bushes and the current wars and our adherence to weapons of mass destruction myth :-)
And Fletch your daughter is very astute. Most of us were 11Bs so how can we sit around talking or glorifying how we killed people? The soldiers fighting today are mostly long range fighting. Very few firefight engagements. The insurgents weapon of choice are cell phone bombs set off from who knows where. there chances of being blown up are astronomical to their chances of taking a bullet. |
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Reply: 12 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 6th, 2014, 7:08pm |
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Minimum Member 
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| I'm one of those guys that wants to ask questions. I hesitate to do so because I know that not all VN Vets WANT to talk about their real experiences. My family made me think that this was a taboo topic to bring up because my uncle served with the 196th for all of 1968 and didn't want to talk about it and that idea has stayed with me most of my life, so I never asked questions out of consideration for his feelings.. Now I'm very interested in history and in particular, the experiences of the average infantry soldier in VN, but its difficult to know if its ok to broach the subject with a vet. Most of us younger guys (I'm 49) know the politics of what got us into VN, and we don't judge you by your experiences. You may think some of us were never interested, but some of us curious people have wanted to hear your experiences for a long time but were afraid to bring it up. My uncle passed away 10 yrs ago and I'm very sorry that I never asked him for his experiences. So please understand that it may be just as hard for some of us to ask you questions about your experience as it is for you to talk about your experience. Thank You All For Your Service, Sam. |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 13 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 12:50am |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Sam ...thank you for your post...youre right in many ways...
First some vets NEVER want to talk about it...for whatever reason..some feel that its in the past and needs to stay there....i have a couple vnam vet friends i located over the years and we dont communicate because thats the way they want it...they never told me a thing....in one case i called one day to stay in touch and nothing more and i was told not to call any more because they didnt know that person ..i sent another one christmas cards and mention th e "olden" days that bonds us and i can tell he is not interested in dredging up the past so i dont mention anything to him but keep in mind that is our bond...we were groundpounders in the same platoon....he led us...
not all of us can cope with our past..some do it better than others...many simply cant.......the new./old saying is IT IS WHAT IT IS ...is very true.......
Speaking for myself i can tell you youre welcome to email me and ask me anything but i have to let you know that we ALL had different experiences and saw thing differently even if we were in the same area....there is not one size fits all questions/answers..
i have written Two "essays" ....one in regards to our daily "routine" and they other what we carried daily out in the field....in general that applied to all of us that were in the field with small variations....if you want i can email you the information...or i can post it here for you and anyone else interested can read it...
I and all the guys i know are very proud of our military time...wished the results were different...i hope i have not given my family the message that it was taboo to discuss Vnam with me... i dont think i have
I welcome all emailers.... at.......namrats1968atgmaildotcom |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 14 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 4:59pm |
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Frenchie,
Go ahead and post both essays. I'm interested even if some others aren't.
Sam,
Do you know your know which unit and company your uncle was with? Need to post your uncles name that may ring a bell with someone here. Name and unit!
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Reply: 15 - 46 |
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| Jim Armstrong |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 5:04pm |
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Posts: 203
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Frenchie:
I would be interested in reading your essays.
Not sure how their length would fit here, but if Admin doesn't object, it would be the best place. |
Jim Armstrong
C, HQ, A 2/1
1965-1967 |
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Reply: 16 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 5:49pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Thanks for the vote of confidence....
I enjoy posting here ...The Guestbook has rigid limitations
I was an M-16 guy most of the time i was there and here is my list of
what i carried in the boonies
3 days worth of C-rats
Personal Hygiene items (comb, razor,toothbrush,toothpaste, TP etc),
Infantryman's towel
Writing supplies
Camera gear and film
2 smoke grenades 2 hand grenades
Claymore mine and/or tripflare (i forget )
Poncho./ poncho liner
Entrenching tool and / or machete
100 belted rounds of M60 ammo
Web gear: pistol belt/ammo pouches and rucksack, canteen cups(4)
14-16 (i forget) Magazines of M-16 ammo.(many carried a lot less)
4 quarts of water
I didnt carry the air mattress...
Heat Tabs and water purification pills (I never used them - i never
got sick)
I did have a radio (until the batteries died and that was it)
Dont recall having extra socks etc..did have a pull-over in the winter
months
Lets not forget the steel pot/liner and baseball cap (i think i had
one in the field)
Any m-16 guys with a different list?
When i humped with the M-79 most of the time i carried 65+ rounds at
1/2 pounds a piece...no M-60 ammo ..
And how can I forget the bug juice…
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Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 17 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 6:31pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Frenchie:
I would be interested in reading your essays.
Not sure how their length would fit here, but if Admin doesn't object, it would be the best place. |
Plenty of space here for sure.......but here is what i wrote about our daily routine as grunts at the time i wrote this i called it TYPICAL DAY IN THE BUSH .... I just recalled i posted this a while back (months) .......this was OUR experience.....yours may vary.
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Assuming nothing too exciting happened during the previous day or night.....here is a typical day out there...
Wake up at daylight or earlier.
Breakfast ....usually instant coffee heated with Heating Tablets or C-4 (we were ahead of the microwave back then)...and something out of the C rats...i forget what it was...maybe canned fruits. After that "breakfast" someone comes around (maybe the medic or squad leader) and passes the malaria pill around if its the right time...we had a DAILY pill and a WEEKLY pill...in our case someone had to watch us take it...isnt that nice???
Gather up the gear and hang out until the higher echelon get the word of our next objective...that means pick up the trip flares laid out the previous night, roll up the claymore mine wires and the claymore mine and store them ...make sure no gear is are left behind...everyone is moving to get ready..
I never heard when the officers got the "word" of our next objective. Maybe someone higher up can explain the process. I m sure the squad leaders have a meeting with the 16 26 36 (radio codes) platoon leaders and find out where we are going...and it’s probably the night before ....while waiting for the famous two words, we put on our jungle juice...maybe even rolled down our sleeves to avoid dive bombing mosquitoes..I’ve wrapped my face with the infantryman's towel to where only my eyes would show..no other part of my face or neck would be exposed for the mosquitoes to munch on. As far as to how far we went before reaching our destination? I’ve heard various numbers...from 3 clicks all the way up to 20-25 clicks....i'm not certain but i would say that the terrain dictated the distance to our destination and possibly (doubtful, the danger level)..and i would estimate that in mosssssssst cases it varied from 5 to 15 clicks...possibly a little further but this would not be a daily situation...I hope someone better qualified will clarify the distance issue..
"SADDLE UP" ahhhh those words from our Sgt Roy Payne...I will find that man yet...if the "word" is given after our "circus day" aka resupply day....there is a LOT of moaning and groaning and guys pulling their buddies up...the pointman gets instructions on which way to go...usually its something like "GO THAT WAY" or we follow the trail nearby...there is no GPS device ...if we come near a creek, we refill our canteens...i carried 4 quarts of water (always)...I never pill-ed my water....that iodine table in the water tasted NASTY...I got lucky and didn't got sick...our water usually came from mountain creeks...some men carried a lot less water - like 2 canteens....some carried those new canteens (bladder?) by now most of us are familiar with them...i didn't like them because of the danger of puncturing it by accident and thereby making it useless. On occasion, due to shortage of drinking water, we have drunk nasty rice paddy water which we pill-ed and on very few occasion, our battalion shipped water by chopper...I saw that happen maybe 3 times over there....so we have already gone through the bush about an hour or so. We have replenished our water supply...fought off the leaches and dive bombing mosquitoes.....just another average day...nothing too dramatic or exciting and typically it was that way most of the time I was in the field.
Around noon, the powers to be decide it's lunch time...so we stop and set up a wagon train type of defensive position and depending on the weather we break out the poncho liners for shade (we tie the corner to the brush or branches. If it is raining, the ponchos come out ...then a squad is selected (by rotation) to go out further and patrol the area...so offfff they go...not sure how far, perhaps about 100M(?) from the main group of the Company. Their purpose is to be an early warning system of sorts for the company....of course there is NO competition to volunteer to go out there...the troops only go when required to do so.....so the famous words of "SADDLE UP" is given and everyone gathers their gear and awaits for the word to move out...usually this is a single file and depending on the terrain and vegetation men would be as far apart from each other as they could but not more than about 15ft... this was done to avoid injuries in case someone walks on an explosive device/booby trap...sometimes, at night, it was more like 2-3feet due to the visibility. I had a situation (daytime) where we were towards the end of the single file and the guy in front of me was a new guy and we got to a fork on the trail...so i asked the new guy...."HEY NOW WHAT????"" so he looooooked and looooooked at both forks and picked one.....BAD choice...so i told him..."You go THAT way and you'll be in Laos by dinner"..off we went and shortly after we caught up with the platoon...
I knew where we were since this was a trail we had used in the past and yes i was being a smart ass that day.....better me being a smart ass than the gooks on the trail. Being last in the single file was not the best place to be...the challenge was keeping up with the rest and it was not always easy...there was what I call the accordion effect....on flat clear ground, the front picks up the pace and then the rear has to catch up when they reach that spot on the trail. On occasion we found base camps...I would guess during my time there we probably found 3-4 base camps. Most of the time no one was there but on occasion there would be a welcoming committee awaiting us. I could be wrong but was that not the situation at Nui Chom (I was not there).
Enemy Base Camps located.
The first enemy base camp found when i was with Company C....actually - this is the 2nd base camp I saw was located across LZ West in the Nui Chom mountain range near Hill 944...we had been there a day or two and I can't recall who was up front (2nd Platoon was not point that day) but I do recall quickly how the word came down that an enemy base camp had been discovered. It was surreal...our pace was reasonable..we were huffing and puffing..the trail was well worn... the sky could hardly be seen due to the triple canopy above us..it was nice and cool which we enjoyed very much. As we got up to the top we noticed all the hootches along the way with no one in sight...there were hand carved chi-com grenades..they roughly looked like WWII German grenades (think potato masher) but smaller...their reputation was not great...we had learned they did not always worked. The whole area seemed to be a training site with classrooms style hootches...the word went to start burning them and the Zippo lighter guys went around lighting them up..it got smoky...i recall seeing a 122MM rocket...looked kinda of old tho...just the one ...no weapons were located, no supplies either..i do recall also seeing unattended fires still smoking with aluminum cooking utensils laying about.
After reaching our night laager
We finally reach our night laager !!! Hooray....sometimes this night laager was at a location where we had been already in past weeks. When that was the case we usually occupied the same fighting positions. We all knew where to go. The fighting positions are always laid out in a wagon train style....round/oval shape depending on the contour of the hill...When this
was a new night laager it was MORE work....the first thing we did was dig a foxhole. I am sure there will be different opinions as to the size of it.
They seem to be like the size of fish in fishing stories....the older we get the larger the foxhole gets .. As I get older myself, i tend to tell others how HUGE the hole was....usually the fighting position was dug for 3 men...i would guesstimate the hole to be about 2-3ft wide, maybe 5-6ft long and about 3-4 ft deep...it usually was not very hard digging since most of the ground was made of decomposed leaves, shrubs, bushes, limbs etc....this size is my best recollection...it could easily have been smaller or bigger that hole was THE priority once we got on top of the hill..it didn't take much
motivation to have the guys dig the foxhole...for obvious reasons. The last thing any of us wanted to see happen was to dig under fire...
Once the foxhole is dug, the claymore mines were laid out in front of the foxholes that would be about 30Ft (i cant recall how long the wire was). The trip flares were also put out somewhere out there.....now when I put my trip flares out, I know this was dangerous but i wanted MAXIMUM benefit from it, I put the pin through one hole only...rather than the two holes so
that ANY pressure on the wire would activate the trip flare...so now the foxholes are dug, the perimeter is secure, we laid out the claymore mines and trip flares... and hope they don’t knock on our door tonight....Now its dinner time and more of that fine army cuisine...we break out the CRats and/or LRRP rations...most prefer the LRRP rations since they are freeze dried and lighter to carry...towards the mid 68 ..it was not uncommon for the army to chopper out meals...yes...they choppered out the warm meals on occasion...I would say probably more than 4 times a month (any ideas?)...and it was decent...
Guard Duty and/or night patrol/ambush
Night time activities
After things have settled down some...there are new activities after dinner is done. After dark, there is very little if any movement. No flashlights, no loud noises...Nightly a squad goes out for either ambush patrol or listening post (LP) duty outside the perimeter or good old fashion guard duty within the company perimeter. This guard
duty assignment is within their platoon and is part of the daily routine no matter what else happens...unless one is part of the officer cadre or the non-commissioned cadre. Its not a matter of "IF" there is guard duty, its a matter of how LONG and how many TIMES there will be guard duty per person that night....the listening post/ambush
patrol is typically a reasonable distance from the rest of the company. I would say about a couple hundred yards or less depending on various factors...and it lasts all night long...as i recall, not everyone is up all night...this is especially so for the listening post guys...they do report to the platoon leader every hour as to
their status (after reaching their destination). I believe the ambush guys did the same thing...
The guard duty (within the company) was as follows in most cases... Most of the time, each squad member had guard duty. The duty was as follows: two 1 hour shift per person for guard duty...if the squad was lucky it meant only 1 hour per night per person...this was based on how many were available in the squad that day.
While on guard duty, I personally never saw anything and barely heard a peep at night (I liked that!!!) Whenever new men joined the company, they would hear EVERYTHING and then some...which was fine with me.....While on guard duty I listened, watch the ground, the sky etc etc...rain or shine...
We had a man in our squad who was a sleepwalker...so when it was time to wake him up we had to make CERTAIN he was awake and alert. We got to actually learn if he was truly awake or not...the guy talked and acted as if he was awake but actually there was something different about him and he really was asleep .. so this guard duty for everyone went on day after day and night after night for a year rain or shine, day or
night...
Everyone took guard duty seriously. When they did not, bad things
happened. I wrote this mostly for non vets who may read my posts...for you vets
it will be dull for sure. I do want to add that these are my
recollections...
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Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 18 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 8:07pm |
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Minimum Member
Posts: 13
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Frenchy- Thanks for posting these here. I was a signal soldier myself (peacetime) so our routine and bring along stuff was different. My equipment was mounted on a deuce and a half. Your posts were both very interesting to me.
Carlfryman- My uncles name was Bobby Vickers. He may have been known as Vick. The things I know are that he was a lrrp in the 196th. I don't know if he was in a line company or recon platoon or even which regiment he was in. I understand lrrps may have answered to brigade but I don't know for sure. He went to Ft Benning and was possibly a shake and bake E-5. Arrived in country Nov 67 and came home Nov 68. I have been trying to get his pictures from VN from a relative that has them, but they arent as interested as I am so they aren't in a hurry to dig them out. I want to post them because I know a name may not ring a bell, but the faces might. I did post in the looking for section about a year ago, but no replies. Since you guys are looking at this thread, do any of you remember which fob or lz may have had a large Snoopy painted on a large boulder/side of a mountain? I think it had a unit designation around it but don't recall which one. Its one of his pictures I remember seeing when I was a child. Also remember seeing one with him and another soldier with a prisoner and another showing a airstrike. I've rambled too much for the little info I have, I do appreciate your posts Frenchy, and thanks for asking about my uncle Carl. |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 19 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 7th, 2014, 11:04pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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| Thanks Sam.....i am confident someone here knows your uncle.....since you re having a hard time getting the pictures...it may not be possible for you to get a copy of the DD214 which may have a lot more information. |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 20 - 46 |
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| Jim Armstrong |
| Posted on: March 8th, 2014, 5:44pm |
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Thanks for sharing those.
I, for one, would welcome such essays, letters or whatever from anyone who has them to post.
Or yet to write and then post. |
Jim Armstrong
C, HQ, A 2/1
1965-1967 |
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Reply: 21 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 8th, 2014, 6:13pm |
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Sam,
Several of the 2/1 firebases had the Snoopy painted on the rocks in memory of LT Ransbottom who was KIA at Kham Duc on 12 May 1968. His call sign was Snoopy 6. He was with E 2/1. We lost much of E 2/1 at Kham Duc. They manned the OP's and were overrun in the early morning hours of 12 May. The LZ you may be referring to is LZ Ross or maybe Baldy. Your uncle and I had to have crossed paths at sometime because I arrived in country on 6 November 1967 and left 3 November 1968. If he was in 2/1 then I'm sure we may have crossed path at sometime. I would love to see the photos when you get them. |
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Reply: 22 - 46 |
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| Jim Gray |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 10:11am |
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Big Member Sept 67-Sept 68 D 3/21 and HHC
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Frenchie. Seems you were "light" on ammo. Most of us carried 2 in the rifle, 4 ammo pouches - each with 4 mags, 4-5 bandoleers which i think each had 5 or 6 mags, no heat tabs but we carried C-4 for heat ( no blasting caps )
We carried everything else that you listed also. I did carry an extra pair of socks.
At one time i carried all of that and also carried the PRC 25 with an extra battery.
I also think that when we were re-supplied we got 4 days of C-Rations. ( 1 case )
I think that it totaled from 90 to 120 pounds depending on food carried.
No matter it was quite a load. Oh we also had to wear a flack jacket. |
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Reply: 23 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 3:07pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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two in the rifle (taped w/electrical tape?) i saw that with a few men but coudlnt get an y tape...i cant imagine us carrying 4 ammo pouches...we had two. Jim some guys such as our Platoon sgt carried i dare say MAYBE 10 magazines at most....and a minimal amount of C Rats (i liked to eat)...no extra socks...the radio guys didnt carry M690 ammo and i have no idea how much regular ammo they carried..im sure they had spare battery (guessing)
We had one old timer who wore a flak jacket..i stole one on Baldy but once it started warming up in March i get rid of it......i have no idea how much our pack weighed but i do know we all helped each other up after getting re supplied....and we ate as much as possible to lighten our load......looks like we had it "easy" :) |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 24 - 46 |
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| Jim Gray |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 8:31pm |
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Big Member Sept 67-Sept 68 D 3/21 and HHC
Posts: 87
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Frenchie. NO one had it easy.
It was rough humping all of that weight. Never want to do it again. Hell, i doubt if i could carry all that now.
I still do a lot of walking. Probably 3 miles a day. |
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Reply: 25 - 46 |
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| Jim Gray |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 10:11pm |
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Big Member Sept 67-Sept 68 D 3/21 and HHC
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| Frenchie. A quick story about flack jackets. We were on a search and destroy. As we came up a small hill we took fire from a 50 Cal. After a few air strikes the 50 Cal was not silenced. So we went across a shallow stream into an area with brush and some hooches. A re-supply chopper was coming in with a few new men and C rats. As the chopper got real close the 50 Cal opened fire. A round ricocheted off of a hooch and hit a 2nd LT in the flack jacket. The Lt was bruised and also found the round . Talk about lucky! |
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Reply: 26 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 11:09pm |
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Carlfryman Thanks for that info on the snoopy. I'm going to explore the 2/1 angle and maybe find his old unit. Werent most E companies Reconn?
Frenchie: Didn't mean to hijack this thread. Thanks for the essays you posted . I would never think to have some of those items and really liked you telling about the average day. I was thinking if I was the new guy on night guard, my eyes would be so big you wouldn't be able to see my face! Yeah I'd be nervous. As far as people asking you questions, for you it's your son asking. I think it should be easier to talk to him than a stranger. Your son probably cares for you a lot and I doubt anything you tell him will change the way he feels about you. Ease into it. Tell about the burn barrel detail and the first time you had to take a dump with everyone around. Tell him how steep the hills were that you climbed. Eventually you could get lots off of your chest comfortably. We are a different generation from the idiots that "welcomed" some of you home. More of us appreciate you guys than you think and we want to hear your experiences. I think the people asking questions want to know. The people that aren't asking, aren't interested. Sign me Curious, but afraid to ask. Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 27 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 9th, 2014, 11:50pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Nah, dont worry about the hijack thing....im happy to see posts here ...im doing the hijacking....lol...sometimes its lonely on this forum...thank youuuu for posting.
Sam, trust me when i tell you i had NO trouble falling asleep when it was my turn...the hard part was pulling guard duty 2-3 times during the night...usually twice...what i tell my son (he is mid 30s) is that war is NOT a video game (Call of Duty etc) you dont get an extra life if you die...no bonus points....to others i define what we did in the following manner: WEEKS of nothing, Minutes of Terror!!! and what did i do? I was a walking target for a year and we are ALL survivors and sometimes we ran into them by accident and all hell would break lose.
Funny you mention the burn barrel , i never did it...some volunteered so that they would not have to go down the hill patrolling (Hill 445)...we talk about the short steep hills, i have an online album he has seen i think...and most of what i try to convey is about the brotherhood that bounds us together....
I tell him how isolated i felt...how some places i felt like i was the only one there in hundreds if not thousands of years....nothing out there.....many of the guys had lots of MPC money and NO where to spend it... |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 28 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 3:12am |
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Yes Sam, Echo Company was recon, so there's a good chance that he was with E 2/1. I wish that your uncle was still alive to talk about his experience at Kham Duc and how he made it through that. Sam, if you have questions, ask. Some may want nothing to do with it, and others like me and Frenchie will try to answer them for you.
Carl Fryman
C /21 1967-1968 |
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Reply: 29 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 1:58pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Sam:
I dont think ive seen you post about your uncle BOBBY VICKERS at the
http://www.196th.org/ site ....post something there....they have a lot more traffic.
Post under the GUESTBOOK tab
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Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 30 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 5:59pm |
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Hey Frenchie, I took your advice and posted on the guestbook. I'd looked at those posts often and hesitated to join in for some reason. Your asking questions thread gave me an excuse to jump in here, so thank you. I thought everyone did the burn barrel thing. Never thought people would volunteer to do it. Guess it makes sense if you don't want hump all that weight. Something you didn't say you carried was rope. Wasn't there some terrain that you guys had to go through that was so steep that someone had to have rope? Or was this a rare thing? Watching movies you only see rice paddies and jungle, but looking at pictures says there are LOTS of mountains.
Carlfryman: If my uncle was at Kham Duc...Wow. While I don't know for sure, that could explain a couple of memories I heard as a child. One was that he survived a bunker explosion, and another about a aircraft (I heard it was a helicopter) that was supposed to extract/evacuate them that was rushed and boarded by others. Then it was shot down w/ no survivors. BUT, my grandmother is the one that said he was a lrrp, and that he went into Laos even though it was illegal to do so, so he made not have been at Kham Duc. Hoping someone can definitely tell me what his unit was for sure. Not sure exactly of his dates of arrival/departure were, but you both may have been on the same aircraft going and coming. You guys are the closest I've come to real info and you both are a great help to me. I've been at a dead end for 2 years on this. Thank you doesn't come close to my appreciation for you and Frenchie. Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 31 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 6:31pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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Sam ...no ropes...the ONLY time i saw a rope was the one time it was decided we would cross a river (deeeeep) with a swift current ...they had a guy attempt to go across with the rope and the "plan" was to anchor the rope and have the company maneuver their way to cross the river.....welllllll, the guy almost drowned...managed to save himself but jettisoned his pack and that was the end of the low tech crossing.....they found a chopper to ferry us across....i know we all saw the lesson in AIT where they said never to use established trails....we always did so no need for ropes and it was never that steep where the rope would be used...paddies and dikes and jungle you got it..and plenty of hills around the valley.
you probably know the story but here is the info about Kham Duc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kham_Duc i dont know why a movie has not been made of it yet!!! it would be a hell of an action movie.
...we missed it but we were told were were gonna go there...of course at the time ii had no clue where it was....in regards to your uncle being in Laos, i wouldnt doubt it...we were on LZ Mellon and at the time we were told we were in Laos...in the last few years ive talked to a couple of our officers.general on down and they tell me we werent.....but i cant get past the time they told us we were there.
Glad you posted on the other site......ive seen guys reconnect after 40+yrs
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Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 32 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 7:50pm |
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I agree that there SHOULD be a movie about Kham Duc. For lots of reasons. I bet if people were told it was true, they'd never believe it. So much stuff there. If you haven't read this, you might want to. Its a thread at armchair general forums that go into some real detail about the Kham Duc actions including some events leading up to it. The poster did a great deal of research before he posted. Some of the stuff is in the wiki also, but more detail and pictures. Hope this link works for you.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117587&highlight=kham
Some of the people there are vets and really know what they are talking about. In fact, I'm signed up here because of Jack Krohn (a 196er).
You know, now that you said "river crossing", most of the river crossing stories I've ever heard involved some poor private damn near drowning. Guess some lessons don't get around enough to keep em from happening over and over! Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 33 - 46 |
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| Frenchie |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 9:54pm |
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Maximum Member2 LIke to hear from anyone that was Co C 4/31
Posts: 407
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That river crossing was interesting.....it was an accident waiting to happen....during that period , we had extensive rain and i was watching and over a period of hours in the area i could see the water level actually rise...we had never done a water crossing with ropes before. In fact i cant recall ANY water crossing by chopper either. The guy that did it was
a small 3rd Platoon Puerto Rican man....they told me he barely had time to pull the quick release straps on his Alice pack. I dont see how he was going to make it across no matter what....the river was wide and the current was very swift due to the increase water from the rain. The other problem was that the rope STRETCHED and it didnt take long before he was under water. |
Frenchie - Gilbert E Manasselian
C 4/31 Feb 68 to Feb 69
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Reply: 34 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 10:19pm |
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| That dude was lucky he only lost his gear. I was in a local guard unit and we went to Korea 3 times total. On my first trip we made a "river" crossing. It was really just a large stream but the bridge wasnt rated for our deuce and a half so we drove slowly through the stream. Turns out that about a hundred yards downstream it was washday and the mama sans got mad at us for stirring up all the mud. We didn't know they were there until they started yelling at us. I felt sorry for them because I knew we were messing up their hard work. Thats the closest to a river crossing I ever had. I spent one trip on a ROK radar site and one trip on a ROK AA site and one trip at Camp Humphries. |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 35 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 10th, 2014, 10:47pm |
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| Another question from my curious little mind. I had a M16A1 assigned to me and carried it often. Mine was manufactured by the Hydrastatic division of GM. I think they made automatic transmissions. Did any one else have a weirdo weapon like this or did you frontline guys have mainly Colts? |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 36 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 1:18am |
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Sam, I was at Kham Duc. That was a C130 that you mentioned that all the locals got on that was shot down. Your uncle was definitely at Kham Duc. We were trying to get out of that place; a place we never should have been in the first place. 27 great men lost their lives there .
In response to Frenchie's remark about rope, we used it once to get up a waterfall. We had put a 5 minute fuse and a 2 pound block of C4 on a dud 500 lb bomb. The rest of the company was waiting at the top of the waterfall for us. We didn't know that the waterfall was there so we left our packs at the bottom just so we could get to the top safely. The only time we used rope. |
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Reply: 37 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 3:50am |
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| Carl I didn't realize that you were in 2/1. I read "Through The Valley" (yes I have that book, bought after I found out my uncle was in the 196th) and thought you were in another unit...My mistake. What part of Kham Duc were you put into? I've read about the fight there and seen quite a few pics of the place and would like to know. I know that was a pretty rough fight for everyone involved. I'm glad you made it through. That place should have been evac'd as soon as Ngok Tavak was over run. As far as the dud bomb, I'm assuming you used the charge to set it off? I know the VC/NVA would salvage it if they could to use against us. I know nothing about unexploded bombs and other duds. I bet you hurried up that rope. |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 38 - 46 |
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| Bob Kotch |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 4:52pm |
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| Sam, that M16 you had sounds like an odd one to me. Never heard of it. How did it function for you? I had an early M16 made by Colt. It had the open spline flash suppressor, which was great for cutting the wire on cases of C rats. It worked fine for me and I carried it everywhere, every day. |
HHC, MP Plt. 9-67 through 9-68 |
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Reply: 39 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 5:15pm |
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Sam, I was in C 2/1. I got to the company on the 17th of Nov 67. At Kham Duc, C2/1 along with B2/1 were on, I guess, the east side of the runway. Most of the action was on the west side looking toward Laos. Delta and Alpha were on that side. I'm not sure where A 1/46 was. E 2/1 was manning the op's. We arrived there on the 10th of May and run out on the 12th. Saw things on the 12th I never saw in my whole tour of duty. The C130 your uncle referred to, was the worst air disaster in history at that point in time. There is a Kham Duc group run by Bill and Ann Schneider. They have had reunions but I was unable to go and also printed a newsletter.
The dud bomb story happened in the mountains off LZ Ross. We put a blasting cap in the C4 attached it to the bomb with the fuse. When the CO said they were clear, we lit the fuse and ran. They didn't tell us about any waterfall. They told us to tie our packs on the rope and they would pull us up. At that point, our own safety was all we were concerned with. After the big bang we went back for our packs. |
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Reply: 40 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 8:33pm |
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| Hey Bob, nice to meet you. I'm not sure of date of manufacture for my weapon, but most of ours were colts. I understood other companies were licensed to manufacture M16s and was really surprised to have the weirdo in my unit. We had a few different makes but I only remember mine. It had the closed flash suppressor on it and I never had a problem with live 5.56 rounds. Blanks w/ the blank adapter were iffy sometimes tho. Now let me tell you something you might not know. I was in a local guard unit for over 10 years and we usually went to Camp Shelby Ms. to qualify. One year all the ranges were booked or something and we HAD to qualify. They booked the local police range for us and it wasn't rated for rifles- only pistols. They gave us a funky bolt with a U-Joint in the middle (you could shake it and it would flop about 15 degrees) and a different magazine-and- a box of .22 cal long rifle (rimfire) ammo. The worst experience any of us ever had. We used gallons of lsa oil that day and got lots of practice clearing jams. It was so bad that they qualified all of us as marksman that day. We never did that again. It was ridiculous. Otherwise that rifle worked great, I loved it. |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 41 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 11th, 2014, 8:59pm |
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| Carl, I see one diagram showing C & D 2/1 on the east side of the runway toward the southern end and it looks like A 1/46 was on the west side directly opposite of where you were with A2/1 and B2/1 at the NW and NE section of the runway. With you facing east, your right flank tied into A1/46 at the southern tip of the runway...Does the sound right? Most of the damaged aircraft ended up at the northern end of the runway. I think. As for the dud bomb, did you guys deal with many of those, I mean was it a common job? I've got more questions about the training you guys got when you first got in country, before you went into the field the first time but I'll save those for later. If I ask something you guys don't want to answer, just ignore it, I wont be offended. Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 42 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 12th, 2014, 1:15am |
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Sam, I thought D 2/1 was opposite us on the runway. After 46 years, who knows. I don't think anyone was tied in to us down the runway. They would have been in range of our .50 cal and recoiless rifle on the op that got overrun. I believe A 1/46 was first ones they tried to get out on the 130. A mortar round hit next to the plane blowing a tire and he stopped the aircraft. He went back up the runway unloaded and flew it out empty. I think the pilot was awarded the DFC. One guy got off the op at the end of the runway and we went down to get him. They opened up on us with the .50 cal. We threw the guy on a 2 1/2 truck which took off leaving 3 of us down there taking heavy fire. We probably crawed about 150 meters in a ditch to get out of range before we were safe. Lots of memories from that day!!!
Carl Fryman
C 2/1 1967-1968 |
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Reply: 43 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 12th, 2014, 2:30am |
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| Yeah my info may not be totally accurate. I was looking at a diagram that's on another site, it might have been accurate for a few minutes! Check the link that I put in post 33 above and you'll see a fairly good timeline of the battle if you're interested. Quite a few pictures and some diagrams also. You might see some one you know. That's all I had to go by, you probably know if its really accurate or not. What kind of injuries did the man from the OP have? Do you recall? Looks like he came from OP3. Good job on the crawling...You gotta avoid the .50. You guys were some of the last ones out? Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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Reply: 44 - 46 |
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| carlfryman |
| Posted on: March 12th, 2014, 5:21pm |
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| Sam, I just spent the last 2 hours reading all of what you posted in that link about Kham Duc. Much of it I don't remember and some I didn't remember the way it was told there. I found out not long ago that the Kham Duc evacuation was the biggest operation of the war. There were over 600 aircraft assigned to that operation. I don't remember the SF's being there until the end. Some got on the aircraft that lifted us into Kham Duc. I thought they all got out but I was mistaken. I was on the last 130 out of there I guess. Alpha 2/1 took a lot of casualities. We didn't suffer any to my knowledge. The gunship that went down on the side of the runway came right into our cp. Everyone was running trying to get out of the way. We were the ones who got the crew out. We took every M60 machine gun off all the helicopters we could find. We came out with twice as many as we came in there with. The man that we picked up down the runway didn't have any physical injuries but was delirious. He was off OP#3. I always thought Lt. Ransbottom was on OP#1. Wrong again. It mentioned Ron Sassenberger and the other two who escaped off an op; I met him at a reunion in Hampton, Va in 1992. Interesting story of his escape from him. He went much more in depth. Good reading but lunch time! |
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Reply: 45 - 46 |
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| Sam Weatherspoon |
| Posted on: March 16th, 2014, 12:17am |
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Posts: 13
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| Kham Duc seems to be the biggest story never told. That was an interesting read, but as far as accuracy I couldn't say. Also ten men can witness an event and you'll get ten versions of what happened. You guys were real lucky to not have casualties. Besides getting shot at, you had stuff falling out of the sky. Still wishing the stuff in that post was more complete as far as names of everyone in the OPs-not just the casualties. It seems 2 men got out of OP1 with a radio and did some note worthy things themselves. I asked about the injuries to the man from OP3 that you guys helped because my uncle never got any serious injuries. When I was a child he told me that he got hit on the head one night and they gave him a medal for it. Don't know the details, but that could have happened anywhere in VN. Good job you guys did getting the men off that gunship. I'm sure they appreciated the help. Sorry I didn't post sooner, I have a really messed up back and had a severe headache the last few days. Blurs my vision real bad when its like that. I really appreciate you talking to me about your experiences, I like to hear the personal stories . You guys have so much that should be told. Talk to you again real soon Carl. Sam |
My train of thought derailed- There were no survivors.
HHC 711 Signal Bn 142nd Signal Brigade 1985-1992 & 1996-1998
Alabama Army National Guard
U.S. Army Reserves 2000-2002 |
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