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 No laughs: M16/AR15 (currently 1 views) |
| Jim Armstrong |
| Posted on: December 13th, 2012, 1:54am |
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Posts: 203
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I don't know if we have talked about it here, but we had serious, life-costing trouble with our M16's in 1966 and 1967.
I think I know the reason and I do know the problems have continued in Iraq and Afghanistan, believe it or not.
I am not sure how to feel about the fact that two of the recent public massacres (Denver and just now in Portland) have been ameliorated by the jamming of the M16/AR15's used by the shooters.
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Jim Armstrong
C, HQ, A 2/1
1965-1967 |
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| Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 |
| Posted on: December 13th, 2012, 3:54pm |
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Posts: 131
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I know the M-16 had serious problems when we got them in mid 1966 just before going over.
We were in a firefight (ambush) on Nui Ba Den in Nov 1966 and my buddy next to me had a jam. He asked for my cleaning rod to push the cartridge out of the chamber, and then after a few more rounds it happened again. He had dropped my cleaning rod and couldn't find it, but I happened to carry another I had received from home, this time I made him knock the round out without my letting go of the cleaning rod. All this while under heavy fire.
In early 1967 I was transferred to the 25th Div (5th MECH) and rode in an M113 armored personel carrier. One time we came under fire and we all bailed out the back hatch. Someone ahead of me grabbed my M16 and I wound up with his. I couldn't even pull the ejector back it was either rusted or stuck with dirt. There was very poor emphasis on weapons cleaning.
I used to spend a lot of time cleaning my weapon, but I remember on a night ambush I tried to take it off safety and the lever wouldn't move. I think just a few hours in the rain had rusted it enough so it wouldn't move.
There are a lot of explanations given for the jamming in 1966, most of them relating to old powder being used in the bullets, but I had a round jam one time, that when I knocked it out of the chamber the brass was split and expanded at the front and that's what caused the jam. On later models they chromed the chamber, and modified the way you were supposed to clean it. I still have a paper we were issued on how to clean the M16.
Many people carried personal side arms, and some even carried AK's they had captured. I carried a .45 that I "liberated" from the arms room. Shortly before I rotated home, I got an over-under M16 with grenade launcher, but I never got to fire it against the enemy.
If they still have problems, WTF! |
Ken McKenzie
C-4/31, 196th LIB, 1965-1967
C-1/5(MECH), 25thID, 1967 |
| Revision History (4 edits) |
| Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 - December 13th, 2012, 3:56pm | | Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 - December 13th, 2012, 3:58pm | | Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 - December 13th, 2012, 3:59pm | | Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 - December 13th, 2012, 4:04pm | | |
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| Gregory B Peters |
| Posted on: December 14th, 2012, 10:37pm |
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Maximum Member2 B company, 3/21/196th, incountry 07/1966-07/1967
Posts: 173
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I got over before you guys and was assigned an M-14, never saw an M-16 until I met up with you guys. Kept it for as long as I could, but couldn't get ammo for it so had to trade it in. had a 16 for awhile, don't remember having problems other than I just didn't like it. I also never fired it on full automatic. We called it the toy from Mattel. After watching all the problems people were having with them, I also opted for an M-49, 45 cal pistol, and a short shot gun. Heck, I grew up with the old M-1 and would have loved one of those with a scope. other than the dirt/rust problems I seem to remember the real problems with the M-16 were the spring in the magazines, they were not strong enough to chamber the round fully while on automatic, causing jams and breakage.
What ever the reason for the last two shootings all I can say is thank God. But those poor kids and teachers in Connecticut are another story........ |
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Reply: 2 - 17 |
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| Jim Gray |
| Posted on: December 15th, 2012, 11:02am |
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Big Member Sept 67-Sept 68 D 3/21 and HHC
Posts: 87
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When i first got there we had the M-16 with the open flash suppressor.
Very shortly after that we were issued a new M-16 with a closed flash suppressor. We were also told to inspect all rounds before inserting into a magazine. We were also instructed to pull the spring from the magazine, clean it and lube it. We were also told to only insert 18 rounds instead of 20. I personally cleaned and oiled as often as daily. Personally i never had a problem. Thank the Lord. |
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Reply: 3 - 17 |
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| Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 |
| Posted on: December 15th, 2012, 7:44pm |
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Posts: 131
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The nice thing about the 16 was that you could carry more than twice the ammo in an ammo pouch. With the 14 you could fit 2 magazines in a pouch, and with the 16 you could fit 5 (4 up and and one across the top). Of course, we were also instructed to put only 18 rounds in a magazine.
The open flash suppressor had a habit of catching on vegetation, and if you had it off safety and your finger on the trigger, you might shoot the guy in front of you. I know at least one instance it happened in our platoon, but didn't hit anyone. I got in the habit of keeping my finger outside the trigger guard. I can't remember if I walked with the safety off, but I think I did.
When firing full auto, you could go through a lot of ammo pretty quickly. When we were ambushed, we started limiting to single shot after quickly exhausting about half our ammo. Firing auto also attracted a lot more return fire...
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Ken McKenzie
C-4/31, 196th LIB, 1965-1967
C-1/5(MECH), 25thID, 1967 |
| Revision History (2 edits) |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: December 15th, 2012, 10:15pm |
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Posts: 175
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| Some early problems were with the ammunition. There were some manufacturing probs that caused jams and that went away with better fitting brass. Another was the quality of the powder. Seems that that would cause a bad contamination problem with the bolt assembly. I think the bad powder and brass made it to nam to save money since they already knew about it and found a work around. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 5 - 17 |
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| Gregory B Peters |
| Posted on: December 16th, 2012, 4:18pm |
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Maximum Member2 B company, 3/21/196th, incountry 07/1966-07/1967
Posts: 173
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Hi Ken, I seem to remember the last comment as we went through the fence on patrol was:"safeties off"! and then "safeties on" when we returned. As to the magazines I remember we would take two and tape them together at the backs so we always had 40 rounds handy with just a flip. some even did 3 together. I think those that came later got issued 30 rounders, maybe more? As to full automatic I saw a demonstration where a full clip was fired off in a standing position. The first round or two were close to target all the rest went high right to left in an ascending line if you were right handed. Course in those days we were all right handed when everything usually ejected to the right :-)
Also, I can't ever remember finding any VC using or hiding an M-16. So what does that tell you? below is a good read on the subject.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/.....d74ec1e4732f5260adb5 |
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Reply: 6 - 17 |
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| Ken McKenzie, C, 4-31 |
| Posted on: December 16th, 2012, 8:25pm |
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Posts: 131
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Frome the above mentioned website, which about sums it up for me...
Enter Ball Powder:
Had we but known, the problem was not simply dirty powder or a lack of regular and conscientious cleaning by the operator, but was due in fact to the burning rate(s) and burning temperature of the powder coupled with varying gas port pressures depending on the powder. It seems that the AR-15/M16 was developed and tested with extruded IMR (Improved Military Rifle) powder. This powder is relatively clean burning, but has a relatively high pressure peak during its initial ignition. Remington had been using some stuff called IMR-4475 that worked extremely well, but wasn’t terribly consistent from lot to lot. Remington had solved the problem by using selected lots of the powder to obtain the desired burning rates and functioning in the M16. In fact the entire testing had been accomplished by using such ammunition. The double based powder (so called because it used both nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose in its manufacture) burned hotter than ball powder due to the nitroglycerine content, and the chamber pressures tended to be a bit higher than with say, ball powder. Because of the quality control problems with the double-based extruded IMR powder that had been used by Remington, all manufacturers of the 5.56mm cartridge preferred to use a less finicky ball powder. The argument was essentially that ball powder burned cooler, thus giving less barrel/throat erosion, and had a lower peak pressure, and would stay well within the pressure limits prescribed for the cartridge. The requirement for using only selected lots of IMR powder having been circumvented, not to mention the great amount of ball powder on hand, the problem seemingly had been solved. In May of 1964, the authorization to use "alternative propellants" was signed without conducting any sustained additional functioning tests. Even Gene Stoner himself issued a warning against such a procedure, but to no avail, and unfortunately there were several unsuspected flies in the ointment, much as Stoner had predicted.
The first and perhaps most important one was that they had not bothered to check the "port pressure" of the alternative powders. While it was true that the ball powders did have a lower "peak" pressure, they also had a higher port pressure. Let’s start this discussion from a simple but accurate premise. All gas-operated mechanisms must be timed. This seemingly simple truism can be applied to automobiles as well as rifles. If there are moving parts involved that are influenced by gas pressure, it is necessary for all of these parts to arrive at their appointed location as designed, and to arrive at the proper time. Since the ball powder had a higher port pressure than the IMR-4475, the gas being vented through the gas tube was under greater pressure as the projectile passed the gas port than would have been the case with the IMR powder. Since the gas was under greater pressure, it should not come as any great surprise that the gas was traveling down the gas tube more rapidly than was normal during its designed functioning cycle. This meant that the gas reached the "gas key" on top of the bolt earlier in the functioning cycle than usual. It did, in fact, arrive while the cartridge case was still firmly "obturated" to the chamber walls by the pressure of the gasses caused by the ignition of the cartridge.
By way of explanation, "obturation" is a physical process that takes advantage of the elasticity of the brass cartridge case and causes it to expand and conform to the exact shape of the chamber walls. The brass even sticks little fingers into minor (often invisible) irregularities in the chamber, thus sealing the chamber effectively and keeping gas from being blown back into the face of the operator. In of itself, obturation is a very good thing. The problem here, however, is that the gas reaching the bolt was arriving before the case obturation had subsided and the residual chamber pressure would not allow the brass to be easily broken loose from its hold on the chamber walls, extracted and ejected. The high port pressure and resulting delayed duration of case obturation often, if not usually, caused the extractor to either "jump the case rim" or pull through it, causing the case to remain in the chamber.
This "stuck case" problem was compounded by the fact that the ball powders being used by Remington (CR8136), Olin and Federal (WC846) were much dirtier burning powders than IMR-4475, and tended to "dirty" the rifle chamber area much quicker than the earlier powder. The dirt that deposited itself in the chamber and feeding areas of the rifle added to the extraction problems – dirty chambers tend to resist extraction to a much greater extent than clean chambers by increasing the coefficient of friction between the case and the chamber walls, thus making the cartridge case more reluctant to leave the chamber. Even dirty chambers can be kept clean with constant care, but unfortunately the dirty powder was aided and abetted by a calcium carbonate deterrent coating applied to the powder that addled to the fouling problem. |
Ken McKenzie
C-4/31, 196th LIB, 1965-1967
C-1/5(MECH), 25thID, 1967 |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: December 16th, 2012, 10:20pm |
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Posts: 175
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yeah....what He said...
I recall a very in depth discussion of the M16 that took place a while back but don't remember where. In it, it was affirmed that we were sold a bill of goods on the M16. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 8 - 17 |
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| Jim Armstrong |
| Posted on: December 17th, 2012, 12:25am |
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Posts: 203
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I had read Culver's article and others like it.
He covers the subject completely except for letting the generals and civilian leaders off too easy.
The operative words in the whole sorry story were greed, stupidity and personal pride.
In Iraq (and probably Afghanistan) AK47's were still much in demand by our troops.
So it goes on, with no one held accountable.
The kindergarten shooter used a .223 Bushmaster, manufactured without the shortcomings of the AR15. His mother bought those weapons for what she called community and self-defense. Didn't work out. |
Jim Armstrong
C, HQ, A 2/1
1965-1967 |
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Reply: 9 - 17 |
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| kocibaron |
| Posted on: December 20th, 2012, 2:01am |
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Posts: 2
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I actually liked my M-16. It was light and lethal-but
I nearly lost my life because of a double feed during the Battle at Tam Ky, I was aiming at a close in NVA soldier, when I pulled the trigger, of course nothing happened. Fortunately one of our M-79 grenadiers took care of the threat.
Various reasons were given for some of the problems but most of the issues seemed to be the result of the environment we were in. Hot, Humid and dirty. The magazines we were given to use were also suspect given the fact we were instructed to put 19 rounds in a 20 round magazine given the fact that the first shell was in the chamber, effectively we had 18 round magazines.
Relative to safeties, our instructions were that the pointman had his safety on automatic (auto-get-em) but anybody else was to have safety on unless the point was off to one side. |
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Reply: 10 - 17 |
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| Bob Kotch |
| Posted on: December 25th, 2012, 6:05pm |
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Posts: 187
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| I liked my M-16 as well. Lighter & lethal, as you say, and easier to shoot and more accurate than the M-14's I had previously shot. I was issued a well used M-16, the old model with the smooth plastic forearm and open splines on the flash suppressor, which worked great for cutting the wire on C ration cases. The later models had s solid ring around the tip of the suppressor. Its funny, if I remember correctly, the ARVN's had the newer model and we had the old ones. I only remember it jamming a couple times early on. Of course, even once is one time too many. Then my father sent me a civilian rifle cleaning kit and I used it regularly to keep it cleaned. I don't remember having much trouble after that. |
HHC, MP Plt. 9-67 through 9-68 |
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Reply: 11 - 17 |
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| Fletchw2zero |
| Posted on: December 25th, 2012, 8:53pm |
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Posts: 175
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| My squad leader made damn sure everyone cleaned their weapons. Hardly had to though since we had a good appreciation for a clean one. It wasn't hard to give it a quick clean what with pushing out one pin and then give it a flip and a wipe with a q-tip and some LSA. We had several rifle cleaning kits amongst us to do the bores. |
Fletch
Co B 4/31 May through November 69
C Btry 1/82 Arty Nov 69 thru April-ish 70 radio handle whiskey two zero
Craig Fletcher |
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Reply: 12 - 17 |
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| JimStone |
| Posted on: January 10th, 2013, 6:28pm |
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Minimum Member A 3/21 67-68 Lexington, Ne
Posts: 18
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| I can't believe you would actually walk around with the safety off. It took all of a split second with your thumb on the safety to take it off. We would pull each other up steep dikes with the barrel end and I sure as hell wouldn't recommend that with the safety off. Most of our jamming problems was lack of cleaning or just plain laziness. We had one guy from New York who we had to boot stomp his chamber open. I always carried a cleaning rod attached to my rifle with boot blousers but never had to use it as I was raised around guns and knew the importance of keepin g them clean. They were light weight hence keep them clean, but you could always beat Charlie to the draw with his heavy AK over his shoulder. The pronged flash suppressor also worked good to snap wires on C-rats. I had one guy cleaning a m-16 loaded with just pushing out back pin. Well he must have had the selector on full auto with the hammer up and when he slammed it shut it went off on full auto right in the middle of us and no one was hit. There were some guys who just shouldn't have been carrying automatic weapons that probably shot more of us than the enemy. |
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Reply: 13 - 17 |
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| Phillip Twilla |
| Posted on: January 11th, 2013, 3:58pm |
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Newbie 1st Plt., A co., 2/1 70'/71'
Posts: 2
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| Well, that triggered a memory. Sept. 5, 70', a new pointman slipped on a wet rock going up a mountain side, somewhere near LZ Judy. His weapon was on auto. He fired half a magazine before he could release the trigger. His slackman (Ken Gniewek) was struck several times. Ken was 22 years old. |
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Reply: 14 - 17 |
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